Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by jeff herman on July 2, 2012 at 3:03pm

However, the pain did drive him to question his faith in G-d ("Why have you forsaken me"?), and to their credit, no censors have deleted that rare indication of human weakness. 

Permalink Reply by Matthew John Blythe on July 3, 2012 at 6:55am

I don't think anyone is in doubt that as a man Jesus could feel things. Credit where credit is due, according to the bible God raised him up and healed him.

Permalink Reply by Readith Mwila Muliyunda on June 30, 2012 at 11:06am

Our ability 2 resist and endure pain is what differentiates us from the murderer, even when we may be going thru similar pains. Inability 2 resist only causes a vicious cycle of pain as dishing out on others only causes more pain. So yes the so called evil people r in tremendous endles pain. But we arent the best judges of who s in pain and who s not and why they are in pain simply by looking.

Permalink Reply by Frank L. Jordan III on June 30, 2012 at 1:20pm

Hello, Readith, glad to meet you!

Although I haven't had much luck in resisting pain (it usually just festers under the surface), I'm in full agreement with you when you say that our ability to endure pain differentiates us from the murderer. Enduring pain is allowing that pain to pass through us. It's my undrstanding that the original meaning of the word "suffer" was "allow", like when Jesus said, "Suffer (allow) the little children to come unto me." And a good way, in my opinion, to endure pain -- to allow it to pass through us -- is to share it with God. I covered some of this in my book of philosophy:

 

However, although suffering in life carries with it

     the possibility of strengthening character,

          it by no means guarantees the certainty

          of such growth.

For the outcome of a person’s encounter with pain

     is determined by how constructively or destructively

          that person deals with it,

          and often, how well that person shares

               their suffering, their loss, with God.

For really all suffering, all pain,

     involves the loss of something.

Even a minor injury means losing a certain degree

     of comfort or mobility, or both.

Show me a painful experience that does not involve a loss,

     and I’ll show you a loss well hidden.

 

For even the pain of a desire unfulfilled,

     of something not yet attained, involves a kind of loss.

Because there was a previous time

     when that desire didn’t exist or was sleeping,

          when one was content with a lack,

          was innocent of a want or need.

It was a time, now lost, gone with lost innocence—

     like when there is the ache for sexual union

          only after one’s sexuality awakens,

          only after that innocence is lost.

But how well we deal with such longing,

     or really how well we deal with any pain or loss,

          depends on how constructive or destructive

          our approach is, our attitude is.

And how constructive or destructive we are towards others

     concerning our own suffering

          is determined by how thoroughly and genuinely

          we share our painful experiences with God.

So I would say that the inability to endure pain in this way "causes a vicious cycle of pain as dishing out on others only causes more pain." (And I hope you don't mind me substituting "endure" for "resist" when quoting you. I couldn't have said it better myself!)

I'm also in full agreement with you about people who commit evil being in tremendous pain, and that we aren't the best judges of who's in pain and who's not -- and why. I'd like to share with you one more passage about this from my book:

 

And it is these offerings that alleviate the pain

     of the lacks that we experience.

It is the joy and strength produced by God’s touch

     that can quell the desires for lesser things—

          things that are not rightfully ours,

          things that would unjustifiably harm another

               for us to obtain, to use and possess.

It is the joy of God’s touch that is like a healing ointment

     on the open wound of evil’s doings and desires.

 

When someone commits evil,

     it is attributed to that person’s faults.

But what contributes to a person’s faults?

Are they  Frightened,

               Angry,

               Undernourished,

               Lonely,

               Tired, or

               Sick?

Before we rush to judge someone as essentially bad,

     let’s get to the roots of their sufferings,

          so that we may more fully understand

          why they sometimes commit evil.

It is with such understanding

     that we can approach them as they truly are,

          instead of reproaching them

          for what they sometimes do.

 

It is through such understanding

     that we can nurture compassion

          toward one who has done wrong,

          maybe giving them a glimpse  

               of the kind of love God has for them,

               when they might not have discovered it

                    on their own.

This is why I believe we should never condemn anyone, Readith. We don't know for sure what's in other people's hearts ... or what God is doing there.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Readith Mwila Muliyunda on June 30, 2012 at 6:02pm

Glad 2 meet u 2 frank. And u re absolutely right 2 replace resist with endure. infact resistance is just another recipe 4 pain. What i meant was the ability 2 resist the urge 2 inflict pain on others when we re in pain. U re right there s oways a loss, but there s a far greater gain 4 enduring. N in any case its a give and take. 4 if we came 2 exercise/remeber the forgiving attribute in us, how shall we do so except we gave ourselves another 2 create the opportunity 2 do so? Ponder the case of jesus: he went through pain so he cud fulfil his mission. It was a vital component. He cud ve as well said 4give them 4 they do not know who they really are. Otherwise they d ve known better not 2 choose 2 play this role

Permalink Reply by Frank L. Jordan III on July 1, 2012 at 11:22pm

So, Readith, I guess a good "spiritual equation" for what we've been talking about would be:

PAIN ÷ ENDURING + FORGIVENESS = PEACE

Simple as 1-2-3!

Permalink Reply by Matthew John Blythe on July 1, 2012 at 11:54pm

If it hurts, it isn't love. That's how you can tell if it comes form God or the ego. Love never hurts!


Pain = Attachment = Judgment = Guilt = MISTAKE!


Simple, even animals know when they are making a mistake. Only intellectual humans analyse the problem and carry on making the same mistake.


To create a miracle, change your mind :)

Permalink Reply by jeff herman on July 2, 2012 at 3:05pm

You cannot exist without wanting, and to want is the beginning of pain.

Permalink Reply by Matthew John Blythe on July 3, 2012 at 6:55am

I think it depends on your definition of wanting. If you are attached to what you want then your attachment says you don't really believe you can have what you want. Wanting something wholly is desire, and what you desire is what God wills for you. If you are not attached to what you want you can just ask and receive. Pain is the resistance to what God wills for you (through fear). In that respect pain, like fear, is an illusion. That is why pain is temporary and can be healed. If it were real we would have no way of correcting our mistakes. Wanting to correct our mistakes is not delusional !

Permalink Reply by jeff herman on July 3, 2012 at 11:40am

But simply being hungry or too cold is to want something, which is the beginning of motion in the absence of abdication and death. The motion to acquire a solution to the wanting creates a whole range of possible consequences, one of which is competition for the desired result. The competition can bring about a range of tactics that can be harmful to some and rewarding for others. When does it become evil? According to some, the only sin is to lose the race. 

Permalink Reply by Matthew John Blythe on July 3, 2012 at 12:15pm

According to A Course in Miracles there is no sin, only mistakes that call for correction through a change of mind. To me it is (what I judge as) evil when someone intentionally listens to the wrong guide and acts on that even if that means hurting themselves and others as an attack on God. But even then "evil" still only means "mistake".

Permalink Reply by Readith Mwila Muliyunda on July 3, 2012 at 2:08pm

Frank i like that formula. We also note that each time we forgive and endure/suffer pain, we are sacrificing 4 the greater good(albeit rejatively small) that we may remember who we are and that those we 4give n others too may remember. This is just one angle that forgiveness offers. The other is the complete release of the self 4 progress on all levels and yes this=peace

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